Curse

shoyon456 · Feb 14, 2011, 04:44 AM // 04:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Do you not read entire posts, ever? Change Sand Shards to physical damage, the only difference is that its pathetic damage will be slightly lower on warriors and slightly higher on rangers.

Do you keep to the point, ever? I wasn't talking about physical vs. elemental damage you were. I was saying that if they expect Flash Enchantments/Enchantment spells like Sand Shards to make up for the fact that the new Mysticism does nothing to make them more effective at melee then we might have the same situation that we have now where scythesins/wars are still most effective with scythes. This is because Critical Strikes provides Emanagement AND DPS, and Strength gives DPS. Of course Scythewar options are pretty much kept with WE, but it's still a serious potential oversight.

Not to mention that it was a bad idea to model Mysticism after Expertise. Absolutely terrible idea.

Malchior Devenholm · Feb 14, 2011, 06:51 AM // 06:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoyon456

Do you keep to the point, ever? I wasn't talking about physical vs. elemental damage you were. I was saying that if they expect Flash Enchantments/Enchantment spells like Sand Shards to make up for the fact that the new Mysticism does nothing to make them more effective at melee then we might have the same situation that we have now where scythesins/wars are still most effective with scythes. This is because Critical Strikes provides Emanagement AND DPS, and Strength gives DPS. Of course Scythewar options are pretty much kept with WE, but it's still a serious potential oversight.

Not to mention that it was a bad idea to model Mysticism after Expertise. Absolutely terrible idea.

Well Shoyon, you've always wanted your class "fixed" for GW 1, but now that the approach seems to be changing to the uniqueness of melee caster, flash enchantments, and teardowns, you just want to go back to swinging your scythe for large DPS.

Hey, you can go ahead and play a A/D if you want to do that, but I think the number of teardown skills are going to inhibit your effectiveness.

Nekodesu · Feb 14, 2011, 10:18 AM // 10:18

I'm making a derv just to try out this stuff, when it comes.

sasxa · Feb 14, 2011, 11:53 AM // 11:53

I like the update in general. Would like to see some other class' enchantments get Flash properties. For example:
Spell Sheild
Zealot's Fire

Infuse Condition
Hexer's Vigor

Persistence of Memory
Illusion of Haste
Channeling

Storm Djinn's Haste
Stone Striker
Flame Djinn's Haste
Armor of Mist
Frigid Armor
Intensity

Critical Defenses
...
...
Mental Block
Mindbender

Basically all enchantments that last less then 10 sec and those that can be used on melee classes as support skill (;

UnChosen · Feb 14, 2011, 12:11 PM // 12:11

On a side note, I hope that the update won't mess with the derv caster builds. In fact I hope they buff a few skills to make derv casters better :P. I don't want dervs to become another "one trick pony" like imbagon or E/Mo ER.

ensoriki · Feb 14, 2011, 01:00 PM // 13:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malchior Devenholm

Well Shoyon, you've always wanted your class "fixed" for GW 1, but now that the approach seems to be changing to the uniqueness of melee caster, flash enchantments, and teardowns, you just want to go back to swinging your scythe for large DPS.

Hey, you can go ahead and play a A/D if you want to do that, but I think the number of teardown skills are going to inhibit your effectiveness.

Where are you coming from. He said it pretty clear that he believes if Mysticism doesn't give melee benefit that the assassin will still dwarf out the Dervish with a scythe.
He isn't necessarily right since Mysticism doesn't need to boost melee passively if there are skills within it that do so, but he is making a legit point.

A/D, Assassin this, A/D Assassin that, half the people playing sins are min/maxers cus I god damn know when I started my Assassin on factions release they didn't play like they do now. Why is my sin 3 skills with filler? Shadow form + Filler, Death blossom + filler, WotM + filler. Awesomes Q_Q.

/rant.

draxynnic · Feb 14, 2011, 01:30 PM // 13:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malchior Devenholm

Well Shoyon, you've always wanted your class "fixed" for GW 1, but now that the approach seems to be changing to the uniqueness of melee caster, flash enchantments, and teardowns, you just want to go back to swinging your scythe for large DPS.

Hey, you can go ahead and play a A/D if you want to do that, but I think the number of teardown skills are going to inhibit your effectiveness.

Well said. To be honest, I don't think the dervish scythe damage really matters. The dervish never was supposed to be a brute with weapons like the warrior and assassin but a hybrid. The hybrid never really worked as intended (well, it kinda did with the old Pious Assault, as long as you didn't mind stripping friendly monk enchantments along the way... but if you were in dwayna form you could afford to), but the update is aimed at fixing that. The important question once the update hits won't be whether the dervish can do more damage with the business end of a scythe than a scythesin or other /D, but whether the dervish as a whole is more effective and useful.

Mind you, I probably won't be shedding any tears if /Ds did happen to be hit with some collateral nerfage along the way.

Mayh3m · Feb 14, 2011, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Very good update preview, can't wait for this to go live.

Kaleban · Feb 14, 2011, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malchior Devenholm

Well Shoyon, you've always wanted your class "fixed" for GW 1, but now that the approach seems to be changing to the uniqueness of melee caster, flash enchantments, and teardowns, you just want to go back to swinging your scythe for large DPS.

Hey, you can go ahead and play a A/D if you want to do that, but I think the number of teardown skills are going to inhibit your effectiveness.

Kind of difficult to be a melee caster when there are no weapons in game based off the primary attribute of the class.

Every caster class has a weapon and off-hand for each attribute, and while there are no weapons for Strength, Critical Strikes and Leadership, those three classes are in no way described as hybrid physical/casters.

That is solely the province of the Dervish.

In fact, before and after this update goes live, the Dervish is actually the "jack of all trades, master of none" type that usually describes a Ranger. A Dervish can hit in melee, but not as hard as others, a Dervish can cast spells and enchants but not as well as others...

Perhaps the reason many are focused on the melee aspect is simply because since its inception, the Dervish IS a melee class with a very minor and generally ineffective casting support role.

Because of this, and the fact that its taken considerable time for ANet to address these issues, many (myself included) are hoping that the Dervish is buffed to the point where swinging a scythe is what makes the class stand out given that its the signature weapon and has cool animations lol. IF ANet is also able to make the enchantment and spellcasting side just as attractive, then great! But its more likely that a buff/balance will be successful if it focused on the main aspect of the class, that of a melee profession with enchant backup.

I have high hopes for the update, but also some trepidation at what may amount to a bunch of half-measures that don't do anything to change the gameplay.

Voodoo Rage · Feb 14, 2011, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Sorry, haven't read the entire thread. Due to all the open hatred of the profession, I've always avoided the dervish. With the upcoming update I wanted to get ahead of the curve and get a new derv up and running. I'm beginning the understand the concept of putting up enchantments and then immediately "tearing them down" to get a secondary effect and a 4 energy return but clearly it is a flaw that currently monk enchantments will get removed just as readily. I'm glad the update will address this making it only dervish enchantments that get removed. I also now understand how much the casting time of the enchantments really screws up the flow of the battle, especially considering that the monster AI tends to want to run past you given the opportunity.

The update kind of reminds me a bit of the old arcade fighting games where you "power up" and try to pull off "combos".

Kaleban · Feb 14, 2011, 04:26 PM // 16:26

One other thing that bugs me a bit about the update preview is how they are changing Mysticism.

For example, EVERY other primary attribute affects nearly every skill of its associated type. Such as Divine Favor healing for ANY monk spell, Strength affecting any attack skill, Critical Strikes affecting ANY attack, Spawning Power any summon etc.

The update notes seem to suggest that Mysticism's new Expertise like feature will ONLY affect Dervish Enchants, which makes it a poor cousin of Expertise and nowhere near as effective as other class primaries.

What ANet should consider is making Mysticism affect ALL Dervish skills, and extending to every other profession's enchant based and adrenaline based skills. This would at least support the idea of secondaries being useful, because as it seems to be now, the update is sort of focusing on isolating the Dervish from other professions.

Steps_Descending · Feb 14, 2011, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Do you not read entire posts, ever? Change Sand Shards to physical damage, the only difference is that its pathetic damage will be slightly lower on warriors and slightly higher on rangers. Its still equally pathetic either way, the important point is that armor-respecting damage sucks, whether it be physical or elemental.

That's got me thinking : a elemental-to physical conversion skill would be interesting. Would also help a bit derv/ele for team synergy. And if you ask me, that thematically fits for Dervish.

Kaleban · Feb 14, 2011, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steps_Descending

That's got me thinking : a elemental-to physical conversion skill would be interesting. Would also help a bit derv/ele for team synergy. And if you ask me, that thematically fits for Dervish.

Well and to be fair, the amount of armor ignoring damage in this game is so ridiculous. When many of the high end PvE builds are built around armor ignoring damage, it kind of invalidates the point of armor in the first place.

They really should tone armor ignoring down a bit, and pump up the elemental damage (or allow those classes and builds that depend on elemental damage to have it scale up in HM) to take the focus off of gimmick/broken builds that totally rely upon it.

Voodoo Rage · Feb 14, 2011, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steps_Descending

That's got me thinking : a elemental-to physical conversion skill would be interesting. Would also help a bit derv/ele for team synergy. And if you ask me, that thematically fits for Dervish.

OMG, can you imagine a Ranger ritual that would convert all damage to Physical damage? That would be awesome.

Kaleban · Feb 14, 2011, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voodoo Rage

OMG, can you imagine a Ranger ritual that would convert all damage to Physical damage? That would be awesome.

Or how about a Monk Ward to change all damage to Holy, by-passing both extra physical and extra elemental armor?

shoyon456 · Feb 14, 2011, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

One other thing that bugs me a bit about the update preview is how they are changing Mysticism.

For example, EVERY other primary attribute affects nearly every skill of its associated type. Such as Divine Favor healing for ANY monk spell, Strength affecting any attack skill, Critical Strikes affecting ANY attack, Spawning Power any summon etc.

The update notes seem to suggest that Mysticism's new Expertise like feature will ONLY affect Dervish Enchants, which makes it a poor cousin of Expertise and nowhere near as effective as other class primaries.

What ANet should consider is making Mysticism affect ALL Dervish skills, and extending to every other profession's enchant based and adrenaline based skills. This would at least support the idea of secondaries being useful, because as it seems to be now, the update is sort of focusing on isolating the Dervish from other professions.

Exactly one of the points I've been trying to make for god-knows-how-long. Although I'd rather see the new Mysticism reduce the costs of all enchantments. Similar to how the old Mysticism would get energy off all enchantments and similar to how Expertise affects all attacks, skills, etc...

And don't mistake me, I'm not saying that I want the Dervish to be solely a melee character, I'm simply saying that one of the problems was Mysticisms limit to being useful for enchantments while (as mentioned earlier) they are primarily melee (since we all know caster Dervs are not useful when compared to alternatives). As mentioned above at the current state the Dervish is a jack-of-all trades in its' ability to both cast and melee, yet a master of none since Mysticism is subpar for casting and does nothing to make it a better melee character than say...the Ritualist.

I had always hoped that Mysticism would be changed to give a melee effect (such as +2 holy damage) based on the condition of enchantments (for each enchantment on you) with a cap of course. This would tie the melee aspect and the enchantment casting aspect of the Dervish in one nice little ribbon.

Obviously Anet went a different way. Instead of changing Mysticism to tie caster and melee together in the Dervish, they changed numerous skills and specifically mentioned that they changed Mysticism in response to their skill changes. Sounds like they went ass-backwards in their process. Mysticism should have been the first thing to get looked at, not last. Of course its all speculative, so here's hoping that the actual update is completely different from what's implied in the preview.

reaper with no name · Feb 14, 2011, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

The difference on the attack skills against HM armor levels is effectively zero. This is why we use multiple base damage modifiers combined with armor ignoring attack skill bonuses and cumulative multipliers like ascan to achieve those 200+ DPS figures. It's all about how much armor ignoring damage you can stack together and deliver as quickly as possible through physicals. More importantly, if something survives past the first 3 hits and/or an auto you probably did something wrong.

The difference between the armor-ignoring damage between the three is very low, but that armor-sensitive damage does in fact mean something (at least with scythes anyway). Even against a monster with 110 armor, the armor-sensitive damage ends up being a significant portion of the damage.

Now, is this difference going to be the difference between success or failure? Most likely not (and if it were, one would probably not notice). The higher skill level of the average GWG user makes it even less likely that this will influence the outcome of combat. But inferior is inferior, regardless of the degree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outerworld

Except you just pulled that number out of your arse.

Actually, I got it from doing the math. And it's actually between 10-15% (varies depending on exact build and level of the enemy), but 10% is a nice round number.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

And how could you tack +damage onto a physical spell? You can't (other than options which work the same for elemental) so the distinction is meaningless. Its armor ignoring vs armor respecting damage.

Mark. Of. Pain.

Xenomortis · Feb 14, 2011, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

The difference between the armor-ignoring damage between the three is very low, but that armor-sensitive damage does in fact mean something (at least with scythes anyway). Even against a monster with 110 armor, the armor-sensitive damage ends up being a significant portion of the damage.

Ok. The average base damage from scythe is what? Call it 35?
On a target with 80 armour at 16 Sycthe Mastery that's going to hit for 28.
At 12 Scythe Mastery with 16 Strength that's going to be 31.
At 110 AR we have 17 damage from the Derv at 16 SM compared to 20 from the War with 16 Strength.
+3 damage? Oh goody.

Now, that average of +3 damage on skills might keep up with the damage boost a Derv gets from his Mystic Sweep and Eremites (higher damage with fewer triggers - they're not maxed all the time). The real reason a War can outdamage a Derv is very, very simple.
Power Attack.

DiogoSilva · Feb 14, 2011, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoyon456

so here's hoping that the actual update is completely different from what's implied in the preview.

I really hope not. All the ideas you people have been proposing of to make dervish an effective boring pseudo-warrior are, well, I'll be honest, terrible. I would say they are so bad that even the idiotic idea of removing the dervish class from the game and giving the scythe to a warrior sounds better. Because, really, what's the point of a warrior-version-2? To further increase the chance of getting entire parties of melee characters in RA, maybe?

Dervishes are not supposed to be boring pseudo-warriors. Dot. It's clear they are not even supposed to be primary melee weapon damage dealers with one-two enchantments to buff them up, neither. Look at their skills. Most of them are spells, most of them interact with enchants (like the very own primary attibute) and most of the attack skills are not even supposed to be regularly spammed. The only reason of their current situation is because their entire class has been a failure. I don't want an update that buffs them physical damage to compete with sins and warriors, and keep 95% of their skills useless, sorry.

The thing I liked the most in this preview, is that anet dedicated themselves to make the dervish's unique and fun playstyle viable and less clungy. And not only with flash enchantments and a mysticism that activates at better times now. There are a lot of other details to consider. The Pious one, yes, but I especially like the idea of not having to buff them up with 3-4 enchantments to make them strong (so I disagree with your suggestion of mysticism doing +X something for each enchantment). I like how the new Mystic skills will work. Full power if you have one enchantment, nothing more.

Even more interesting, though, is the potential of avatars. Seems like Balthazar will make dervishes more like warriors, so here's the answer for anyone who wants them to be warriors. I wonder, will the other avatars allow them to act like other professions effectively too? I would love that.

Finally, you all sometimes forget that ZV builds, Critscythes and Endurscythes, the three BIG arguments against this new update, only exist because of the way the dervish works *before* this update. There's no garantee that the change they will make to scythes will or will not be relevant, nor if ZV, AoHM among others will be unchanged or adapted to the idea of enchantment removal.

Vincent Evan · Feb 14, 2011, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Well and to be fair, the amount of armor ignoring damage in this game is so ridiculous. When many of the high end PvE builds are built around armor ignoring damage, it kind of invalidates the point of armor in the first place.

They really should tone armor ignoring down a bit, and pump up the elemental damage (or allow those classes and builds that depend on elemental damage to have it scale up in HM) to take the focus off of gimmick/broken builds that totally rely upon it.

If they actually did this, tone down how much armor-ignoring damage skills are in this game, PvE would actual go down a road to be fun and worth time. I approve.